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spotlight skullshines
Level 1: 10 points
Alltime Score: 1621 points
Last Logged In: February 7th, 2014
BADGE: Journey To The End Of The Night


retired
15 + 40 points

Note To Players by spotlight skullshines

July 21st, 2006 12:34 AM

INSTRUCTIONS: Compose a statement that you feel should be shared with all SFZero players.

Your statement should be useful, enlightening, or, at the very least, novel and funny.

please dont play for points.

(to be said with the tone that john stewart used on crossfire when he said "you guys are huuuurting america")

pleeease dont play for points.

play the tasks that inspire you.

obviously this isnt a message to all the sf0 players, but then, at the same time i guess we all have a part of us which would like to get more points, so maybe it is.

i fear what will happen to this site when it grows bigger. a bazillion point hungry monsters could be as uninteresting to look at as the average stroll through diaryland for a good read.

we've all gotta try to give more to the mad cap hijinks than to the points, cause thats what its all about right!?!?!

(unless of course you have some alter ego with a name like "point monger "who plays only for points as somekind of rediculous joke and parody of a way not to use this site.
(matter of fact,
somebody should do that
(maybe i will)))

- smaller

Winner.jpg

Winner.jpg

i win!!!



10 vote(s)



Terms

(none yet)

21 comment(s)

(no subject)
posted by star5 on July 21st, 2006 1:26 AM

much agreed!

i like points! but i only want points for tasks done well.. more points mean more possible tasks.. but if i'm not inspired, i won't do a task or i'll redo it before submitting. so yes, points are great.. but not the point of why i play. i'd rather be on the bottom with a few fabulous tasks then on the top with just the bare minimum done for each task.

exactly
posted by spotlight skullshines on July 21st, 2006 10:48 AM

i couldnt put it better. thats why i carouse the low pouint [parts of this site as well

(no subject)
posted by r0ck c4ndy on July 21st, 2006 12:17 PM

That's just what I wanted to say to people! Points only serve two purposes, rewarding you by people voting for something fabulous, and allowing you to do more cool things later. I have no need to ever hit the first page.

(no subject)
posted by Gadget on July 21st, 2006 12:44 PM

I'm with you on this one. Perhaps the default player ranking should be by votes instead of points. Votes (aka peer recognition) is much more valuable in terms of letting you know who is doing amazing stuff.

my 2 cents
posted by SNORLAX on July 21st, 2006 2:06 PM

I agree with you for the most part.
Except, I think the most important part of this game is to have fun. After all, its a game, there really is no point to any of this. If having fun means going around the city with your friends taking a picture of plants growing in a manhole or planting a tree, thats fine by me. There really is no interesting way to do these tasks. And that goes for many others too, like celebrity doppleganger or the kevin bacon one. We have all done at least some of these tasks.
There are only so many ways to do some tasks in an interesting way. Does that mean other people should not go at it and have fun with it if it makes for a less interesting proof? Or what if there is no interesting way to post a proof for something. Should I not have posted the "Illegal" task? I did the task and I had fun with it. heheh
I think many people who participate in this game need to stop worrying about what other people are doing , stop critizing others (flag them if they don't meet the requirements of the task), and HAVE FUN WITH IT IN THEIR OWN WAY. Yeah, it would make the site more interesting if everyone did tasks like Robertish/Spotlight Skullshines does, but thats not going to happen, especially if the site gets huge anyway. If there's a contingent of people critizing tasks, it will discourage people from wanting to particiapate. I think Robertish chose an excellent forum for this message.

PS props to robertish for creating the best task ever, We the horny.
PPS (or is it PSS?) Click here to view the clip of Jon Stewart on Crossfire. Its pretty damn good.

---EDIT
i welcome anyone to message me for debate/discussion

sincerely,
-point monger

(no subject)
posted by Rubin Starset on July 21st, 2006 2:28 PM

I don't play for points, I have the Drive for Score.

I disagree...
posted by Salty Pete on July 21st, 2006 3:40 PM


Play for whatever reason you want to play. Playing for points will diminish your own experience of the game. Personally, I play for both. I do easy, boring tasks for points when I'm feeling bored and more complex interesting tasks when I'm feeling inspired. But really, the system takes care of itself.

I feel like the system is self-correcting for two reasons:
1. Doing tasks just for the points is boring and you will eventually stop...
2. Getting points just from tasks is kind of hard. Doing 40 20pt tasks will get you on the front page (as of this writing) but it would also take a long time and be relatively difficult. It seems like if you really want lots of point you should try a task that noone has done before and really wow people for votes. Thats where the real points are... in the votes.

yeee haw a thread!
posted by spotlight skullshines on July 21st, 2006 7:43 PM

All: I feel some of this discourse might be steered better if I were a little more clear.
As an example of what I would consider crumby play,
I could totally claim my points for bathroom photography and in the proof just refer people back to my taste the rainbow proof.
That’d offer nothing too new to the table.

Drinky Cow:
You put forth a strong argument for the system taking care of itself. I’m still a worry wart, but, well, shoot it is convincing. I think to add to your argument, as Low Teck points out, there are plenty of folks out there commenting on crappy insufficient proofs, and that is also a great check in the system. By the way, I refered < a/ href www.boingboing.net > boing boing < a/ > to your pee wee herman task, which I believe was really fucking interesting although I cant really say as I heeded your warning about not actually downloading it. It’s kinda like the quantum mechanical half dead cat in the box thought experiment, except the odds are almost totally in your favor. In other words, In my hypothetical world (which is governed solely by subjective beliefs) you potentially kick a whole lotta theoretical ass. (despite the fact that I assume your plug in will not make the arms of my chair snuggle around me lovingly)

Lowteck: You bring out a bit of fuzziness in my call to action. I should clarify myself by saying I don’t just want people to make shit that will be interesting for the audience. Hence, I am totally on your side about the “picture of plants growing in a manhole or planting a tree … celebrity doppleganger or the kevin bacon one” I think the first one sounds like a cool interesting immage I never saw before (are you refering to an interesting proof I have not yet seen?). The later two tasks don’t offer much room for uniqueness, but, are pretty fun and, if you have any investment in the input (e.g. you know the person doppelganging themselves or like the bands being baconed) then the results, though predictable in some ways, still make for a good time for the viewer too.
As for the ganjah picture, in all honesty, it rides a gray zone for me personally. It absolutely fits the task requirements, so, I would in no way wanna flag it. At the same time, you even sounded kinda iffy about weather or not it was really something worth proofing. It, felt too much like 1) everyday routineing and 2) every day routining matched with the proof in a way you didn’t seem to feel was clever or unique or notable or worthy of much consideration. Im not hating. Its obvious you love the game. Your tree simulation was fucking hilarious and your birdsong proof was beautiful. but I do hope you feel more than ho hum about a proof, which you seemed to be about your cannabis purchase. its not too late to redo it (actually I assume you “redo” this purchase often, maybe even weekly) I wouldve loved to maybe see you sneak in some detail about your life, something unexpected for me to grip on to and enjoy, possibly some honest depiction of the strange thoughts you had after you smoked possibly!?!?
Thank you for continuing the discourse (john stewart murdered tucker carlson, crossfire suddenly ends after over 2 decades of programming, ... causal relationship???? i think so)

Gadget: I totally agree that a bigger focus on votes and commented upon proofs would be fantastic.

Pan Dimensional (addressed to your second (longer) post): I agree and disagree with the economics metaphor. My favorite experiences so far have been the low scoring ones, lemonade stand, trash liberation, fortune not cookie, document a construction. These four, I feel, are not only the closest to me at my current creative cusp, but also were plenty fun to do.
My point being, while I admit it is moronic of me to try and demand an emotional reaction of anyone, I also feel like I was once with no points and was pretty happy working for the fun of it, maybe I should reiterate that my point is “such a perspective IS possible and maybe more fun”.
There’s another way that I think your metaphor works, a way which I think was unintentional, however. I often think about the straight economics of sf0. While I’m working 2 pretty regular wage jobs and am scrooge mc duck by no means, I am also not in career mode (e.g. I don’t feel pressures to be 9-5 ing for a boss whose position I am waiting for) My part times pay well enough and are forgiving enough as far as commintment is concerned that I often have one or even two entire weekdays totally off. That freedom, is in many ways an economic one. That freedom was intended to be used for furthering an “art” vision, it obviously still is, but you guys know what I mean when I say “art” right?!?!?
Something you can sell!
(ahh now ive let the poop outta the pooper (I’ll never live that one down))
I wonder how much a thorough task completion hinges on the ability to be a part of the leisure class or, well, I guess im part of the part time class.

(And (by the way) pan dimensional (if that is your real name) while I don’t program (but am learning mel scripting (quite slowly (I might add))) the multiple parethesis thing is something I just started doing recently and it just kinda stuck (as in it feels like a natural way to punctuate) im glad you relate!)

oh yeah
posted by spotlight skullshines on July 21st, 2006 7:45 PM

and my dirty secret is,
while i try not to let it effect my playing, i would LOVE to be in the next level up.
theres a task i wanna do real real bad.

hypocritically yours
ss

a quarters worth of 2 cents
posted by KenDragon on July 21st, 2006 11:14 PM

I contemplated responding to this for a while because I learned a while ago, one never talks religion nor politics with a stranger and expect to win friends.

See the issue is I agree with the original posting almost 100% which was that the points are nice and all, but it’s the act of doing that should really be motivating the people as they play. It’s some of the other posts that followed up that I don’t quite agree with. I'll readily admit this, I get a ton more points for completing tasks than I get voted for. I have compared my tasks (even before this posting(and no I’m not joining in with the multiple parenthesis thing(as I wouldn’t be good at it))) to those done by the people around the same point level than I am and I see that I don’t get the votes that other people get. Take the poster of this particular thread - spotlight skullshines – he’s completed about ½ the number of tasks than I have and yet he’s got a higher score. I could bellyache about how he’s got a ton o’ friends on here and gee, wouldn’t it be nicer if people voted for friends less and strangers more, but lets face it, he’s done things that are much more brilliant than what I have done. I am pleased with what I’ve done, but my best things are not on the same level as his best things. Sometimes people just have more talent. Kudos go to him in the form of votes. (goes or go? I want to put go, but Word keeps telling me it should be goes. Any English majors out there?)

When I joined, I signed up for the group that that would be the hardest for me. I know I am under-talented for it and I don’t expect a gazillion votes for anything I do because there are a large number of creative people on this board that will do things well beyond my ken. For instance, the Street Junk Sculpture task. Not including travel time it took me to get to the place where I decided I was going to create the sculpture, it took me 3 hours to gather the material and create the thing I created. No votes. No comments. Nothing. I have to assume that compared to the people on the site that did this task well (and who I voted for) that sure, it isn’t nearly as good. But should I not submit it? Or even give up on the whole game all together because the other players may find it not even worth commenting on? Should I not try the Taste The Rainbow task because it was done so well already by others? I have it in my plan to do it, and do it as best that I can even though I know it won’t be nearly as good as what was already done. If I’m playing this game purely for votes… well, there are an awful lot of tasks I should never do then because I’m just not going to get votes for them.

And wouldn’t that be a shame, to play to not do the things that perhaps you can’t do as well, and do them the best you can, but to do only those things you know you can do well, because it will get you votes. I have a deep seated belief that, in the human condition, perfection is not a place or an object or a goal, because once you experience the place or own the object or reach the goal, the perfection of ‘it’ gets replaced by the next place, object or goal. The only place that perfection continually exists is in the effort put forth to achieve (read ‘create’ here if it fits you better).

The few votes or comments I’ve gotten, I cherish because it means that I managed to do something that caused me to connect to another person, even if it was for just a moment. I’ve even solicited feedback from some of the more critical players on this board to keep me from just doing the bare minimum. Sure, I have a lot of chaff in what I’ve done, but I’ve managed some wheat as well. Hopefully, as I learn and grow, the wheat will come more often.

In the end, I do these tasks for me and even though I may not be perfectly talented, I’m going to have fun in the way that I can. And that way is I finish tasks.

redo is at
posted by spotlight skullshines on July 22nd, 2006 1:43 AM

basically im redoing my post cause its tone is totally antithetical to my purpose.

http://crisis.sf0.org/robertish/taskDetail/?id=420

to ken dragon
posted by spotlight skullshines on July 22nd, 2006 1:43 AM

1) huge thanks to you Ken Dragon for your candidness in this thread and kudos to the shit ive done.
2) Though it will make me seem like more of an arrogant ass (than I probably already seem) I want (using your example) to aim dead on to honesty…. many of the votes preceede the friendship. Meaning, 9 of the people in my friends list are people I did not know before sf0. of those 9, 4 of them I have never met face to face. (and After I finish writing this post, I aim to turn that 4 into a five, if you’ll accept.) because I started out kind of only interested in creating and not reading, these 4 friends are people who voted for me a couple of times and eventually asked to be my friend. I would accept, read their posts and the inspiration started to become a kind of … (arghhh, kiran if your reading this help me) whats that word when two drugs put together multiply their effect 10 fold!?!?! It starts with an s, its not symbiosis. Arghhh, anyways. It became mutually great.
To be clear Im not trying to dress this fact up as some kind of rebuttal to the meat of your post. Its just a correction to one sentence.
The meat of your post, from my perspective, is .. isnt this game about living it / experiencing it/ sharing it rather than getting recognition!?!?!
And I see what you mean. The beginnings of my proof here seems to call out for a genuine experience not point “mongering” (im quoting myself here). Somewhere along the lines, I started talking about the “checks” that keep this system in flow, and I got talking about votes as though they, as a system, “worked” (where “working” means they nudged the legitimate proofs to the forefront and scorned bogus ones to the shadows)
The reason I thought they “worked” was, everytime I put my love and heart into something, it was voted on. Clearly Im totally wrong though. Of course the system is flawed (most are (not to say we should be apathetic)). Your making the conscious decision to work on a group that is against your nature is voteworth and noble and what this game is all about as far as I can tell, but, there was no way for us to know that beforehand and there is no way for us to vote on it now that we do know.
Before I explain why Im redoing this task, I’d like to offer a bit of narrative about my experience with this site so far.
I was down and out artistically. A friend showed me the site, and, OBVIOUSLY I thought it sucked. I say obviously, because, well, this site means nothing to you if you are down and out artistically. If you arent feeling creative, its wack, its success totally relies on your inspiration.
One night I felt kinda cornered and bored, my options for the night was to hit the same old bars and bullshit with the same cast. That night, fortuituously was the night of the journy to the end. I decided to go. I wrote … to “do something different might do me some fucking good”, . After the journey, I saw the potential and the beauty of the site. I had the time of my life.
The adrenaline rush of that experience kept my heart racing for hours … even days afterwards. Life was different, I had a place to find that random element I so much crave.
Next I did a proof. I got a good response.
I suddenly felt that this site was not only a medium but an audience. I felt good about what I create again. It had been a long time. Almost 4 years by my count. That’s almost half a decade. That’s a long time to feel wrong about your voice and yourself.
Ever since my sudden love for this site, Ive very much wanted people to feel the same way. I’ve invited a lot of friends. Most don’t join. I sent out, probably 40 emails to people with 40 points and below, explaining this very narrative of how sf0 inspired me, explaining that I hope to do the same by giving players a chance to devide on how to give away 1,000 some bottles of free juice. NO ONE RESPONDED! I ended up doing the task with Sam and Ian and Tapesonten ( a longtime acquaintence) and his friend, which was totally great, but it wouldve been a lot cooler if some people responded to my mail!!!
I don’t know how to infuse this enthusiasm and self love and joy in creativity.
Telling sf0 to stop caring about points is really not going to recreate that feeling for others.
Ken Dragon: your street junk sculpture is really fucking weird dude. If I were waiting on cal trans, and stuck in my typical routine and saw that …. it would throw me for a total loop and leaving me slightly baffled and, more importantly, significantly unroutined. In other words, I think its dope.
If it isnt obvious already, I also think your tirade was dope. You (and all the critics of my proof and contributors to this discourse) helped zero me in on that feeling I want to infuse in every sf0 participant …. Thank you .
I will resubmit this task as a do over.


REDO OF MESSAGE TO SF0

4) ... link to original proof

http://crisis.sf0.org/robertish/taskDetail/?id=526

this is the task i redid.
Its not just that its unclear (eliciting a lot of responses regarding its unclarity). It kind of misses the point of the entire game, which, arguably is worth negative how-ever-many-points-ive-got.

1) this task isnt worth 25 points (c'mon ... so what, flag me)
2) Ken Dragons criticism is, ultimately what im citing as my claim to lameness, it can be seen in the comments section of the original proof. All of which is required reading in order to understand this redo.
3) the redo itself .......

Before I joined SF0 I was down and out artistically.

A friend showed me the site, and, OBVIOUSLY I thought it sucked. I say obviously, because, well, this site means nothing to you if you are down and out artistically. If you arent feeling creative, its wack, its success totally relies on your inspiration.
One night I felt kinda cornered and bored, my options for the night was to hit the same old bars and bullshit with the same cast. That night, fortuituously was the night of the journy to the end. I decided to go. I wrote … to “do something different might do me some fucking good”into mynotebook that night . After the journey, I saw the potential and the beauty of the site. I ran from authorities who screamed at me mid chase. I got away. It was like high school all over again!

The adrenaline rush of that experience kept my heart racing for hours … even days afterwards. Life was different, I had a place to source this random element I so much crave.
Next I did a proof. I got a good response.
I suddenly felt that this site was not only a medium but an audience. I felt good about what I create again. It had been a long time. Almost 4 years by my count. That’s almost half a decade. The only good art ive made in that time has been, good only in its honesty, the message of that honesty was a sort of furious lashing out at the world which wasnt going the way i wanted it to. That’s a long time to feel wrong about your voice and yourself.
The world is obivously still not going the way i want it to, but i feel empowered to do something about it. This is why im part of humanitarian crisis, i believe it will give me a chance to fight.

Ever since my sudden love for this site, Ive very much wanted people to feel the same way. I’ve invited a lot of friends. Most don’t join. I sent out, probably 40 messages to players with 40 points and below inviting them to do the lemonade stand task. I doing so I explained this very narrative of how sf0 inspired me, and that I hope to catalyze similar inspiration by giving players a chance to decide on how to give away 1,000 some bottles of free juice. NO ONE RESPONDED!
I ended up getting responses when i finally wrote Sam and Ian and Tapesonten ( a longtime acquaintence) and his friend, which was totally great, but it wouldve been a lot cooler if some random people responded to my mail!!!
I don’t know how to infuse this enthusiasm and self love and joy in creativity.
But obivously, telling sf0 to stop caring about points (which is what i did before) is really not going to recreate that feeling for others.

I've said this to you before...
posted by Jackie Hasa on July 24th, 2006 12:25 PM

and I'll say it again here...

I kind of think that points are good. But, votes are better. Thusly, I think that there shouldn't be that much of a point differential for different tasks (like 250 vs. 15 when the 15 proof may be way cooler, and then you only get 3 points per vote vs. 100 points or whatever). I sort of think there should only be like a range of 10-50 points per task, and then all votes are worth 20 points, so that "coolness" is more of a motivating factor than quantity. It would be much more democratic than that authoritarian "1000 points for doing this particular thing" designation from above, but still preserve some benefit for simply doing a more difficult task, however poorly.

That said, I'm a fan of things that cry out to be interpreted, and sf0 is certainly one of those things. I sort of enjoy sacrificing point-volume for my own self-satisfaction with what I'm doing and just telling myself, this is how I'm playing the game (I won't let my desire for point-fame play me). So honestly, I really enjoy that there are a number of different ways of dealing with the structures sf0 provides, and I don't think that points necessarily equal "bestness"--one of the things I like about this site is the very emptiness of those points, that we're all essentially playing for nothing but our own idea of what we're playing for.

On a side note, I'm really glad that sf0 is now generating this discussion of what sf0 actually means...so self-reflexive...ahhhhhh

Late to the Meta-Party
posted by Joshua Kelly on August 3rd, 2006 11:33 AM

Just wanted to add my 2 bits, about a week late, I know.

For me, when I play, my goal is the high score graphic. I want to really crack open the potential of the task and d impress the community with what I've done, and I'm only inspired by those tasks that I think I can do in a creative way. I think the same thing drives you spotlight, your taste the rainbow is amazing (and gross) and I'd be surprised if someone can outdo it. But maybe they can, who knows?

What I don't understand is how people get upset if someone is 'playing for points' well, that's their issue. I've done some things that were not particularly creative, like when I slept on a boat, or that took a lot of effor but the result was wasn't particularly satisfactory, like my now destroyed lawn chair. However I'm the only person who's done these yet, is that point-grubbing? Maybe. I think it's a challenge. I would love for someone to out-do me in these categories. I'm saving votes for that day actually.

People are going to be naturally competetive, and I think that competition is good for driving the game, people want to out-do each other in creative ways. The points system is a way of playing to that competetive drive. And now with all the different options in the Praxis thingy, you can examine the players and tasks using the metric that suits you.

I'm not sure what my 'point' is here with this post, other than to explain what drives me in the game, and to suggest that people lighten up a little bit. If someone is doing the bare minimum, just ignore them, and then go create something that will blow everyone away.

Josh

a thought about votes
posted by KenDragon on August 15th, 2006 12:34 PM

I was looking through some of the tasks completed by players, both recent and past, and I was surprised to find how many task completions I can miss, especially at a high level. Many of these tasks are voteworthy, but are quickly pushed off the recently completed task boards as new players enter the game and start to learn the system by doing some of the lower level tasks. I did a quick count yesterday and there were 172 boards of completed tasks. At 15 tasks per board that's over 2500 tasks completed. And at my level, I have all of 55 votes to disperse.

I think it would be great to have a way of splitting up the completed task page by level, so that if someone completes a level 6 task, it won't get burried by the 37 level 1 and 2 tasks that get completed. So maybe the last 5 completed tasks of each level with the higher level tasks staying in the forground of SF0 conciousness.

Also with voting, it's tougher now than when I started to discern what completed task I'm going to vote for when. Take my first vote ever cast - it was for a restroom photography task and in my quick study, it seemed the person I voted for was probably within the first 10 to submit the task. Since then, there have been 80ish times the task has been completed. I probably won't take the time to go sifting through each and every one of the 99 completions to find other vote worthy ones, but it does bring about the question of how many vote worthy items through all of SF0 haven't received a vote because they are lost among the avalanch?

I'm not bring this up to say this is an injustice of the system and should be fixed, yada yada yada, because I think the system works fine and a lot of the really great completed tasks obviously float to the top. And I certainly don't have a suggestion what changes to make to get it to be 'better' other than the one above. (perhaps an equivalenz person can figure out how to do that.) I just wanted to point out that for people playing the game, that votes can't be the only carrot (even though spotlight and i agree it's the play of the game that's important) since extra votes and tougher tasks are available only as characters advance in the levels of the game.

(no subject)
posted by avidd opolis on September 19th, 2006 12:30 PM

If it weren't for "points", nothing would get done.

(no subject)
posted by SNORLAX on September 19th, 2006 2:10 PM

only if you are solely motivated by points

Yeah but...
posted by Yenoh Honey on October 18th, 2006 8:27 PM

I think it doesn't really matter what you play for. The people who play for points will ultimately get bored of never being "first" or "best" or whatever. I mean, how many tasks can you do just for points that are heartless and suck just for the points? Sooner or later you will start to want the positive feedback and to provoke interest. What will you achieve with points alone? It's like dating someone for money. You can date and get all this cool shit but then you get married and have kids and shit and then realize that you are not in love and that is really what matters. Then you try to get satisfaction elsewhere because you are unhappy and already have every material good you want. So you have an affair on the side to distract yourself from your miserable life and you are too much of a loser to admit what you just did.

And where does all this get you? So basically what I am saying is that any Pointmonger will ultimately create their own fate, get bored and leave. Just don't marry them because they are losers and will cheat on you.

wow
posted by SNORLAX on October 19th, 2006 1:15 PM

i hope you're not speaking from experience....

(no subject)
posted by Leonid Brezjnev on January 18th, 2007 5:22 AM

By scrolling through the tasks I came by to this particular task, since this is the best appreciated proof of all 'note to players' proofs I decided to take a look.
The moment I finished reading I was touched, not only by all these people concerning only the best for this game but also in some sort of negative way. If you see some 'lame' point monger why should we just ignore that particular person? Isn't it better to motivate him or her to be creative and such. The moment I got an invite for SF0 I thought it'd be 'another' lame site needing you to do lame things like having at least that amount of people 'clicking you links'.
But it is nothing alike, it's more about getting appreciation about your work done. SF0 tells you what to do and the community says if you did well. In some cases you think you did extremely well on a task but you don't even get a comment, this might frustrate you. (had some experience here)
But the thing is, and this is where I get to the point, is that it's all about getting appreciation. You might get it by getting on the front page, or by having comments for every task or it may even be to inspire other people. If you wouldn't need the appreciation, there's no reason to post your proof, all we want is fame in the end.
Sorry for being so late on replying on this, but I haven't read this proof before.

(no subject) +2
posted by Jellybean of Thark on April 24th, 2008 3:27 PM

Points are nice, but what I really dig are comments.