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This proof has been flagged by 6 of your fellow players (for the benefit of all, flags are anonymous). As such, it has been automatically disapproved. Most likely, they've posted comments explaining why they're displeased. If you think you may be the victim of a bug, injustice, or a gang of Rubins, hit up the contact page.
This proof was un-submitted - any comments before this one are from before the un-submit.
What's up with that bottom graph? Does talking fall under 'other?' Or is it assumed that 100% of people who have phones talk on them. Or am I missing something?
I'm still not at all sure why this is worth 400 points - but this time around that's mostly criticism of the task in general rather than of one completion.
Cell phone companies must have infiltrated SFØ.
I tell you, those things are evil...
I carry mine as an electronic house arrest monitoring system. Fitting.
Sorry. Have to admit I flagged. I really hate this task.
This proof has been flagged by 6 of your fellow players (for the benefit of all, flags are anonymous). As such, it has been automatically disapproved. Most likely, they've posted comments explaining why they're displeased. If you think you may be the victim of a bug, injustice, or a gang of Rubins, hit up the contact page.
I think what's missing are 400 answers to the question. Four hundred answers worth a single point each.
The reference to ilovebees, however - was I the only one who got this?
I got it.
And yeah, when you answer the question in a way that's worth 400 points - I for one will vote for it. And encourage everybody else to also.
Ahem, I continue to maintain that we found an excellent way to deal with this. Perhaps you missed it. Or perhaps you disagreed. Though if so, you only voice your disagreement here, at dear Tempie's task. If the question is what does SF0 do with weird, short, vague or transcendent task descriptions... the correct answer is praxis.
I say pipe down you nattering nabobs of negativity.
Yeah, I hadn't noticed that one. I don't care too much for it either - primarily because I think the point value of this task is way too high.
Oh my gawd.
how can you be so obtuse?
what?
obtuse. is it deliberate?
I think BU is forgetting himself.
Perhaps he'd like another 30 days in solitary.
(My comments were and are for Teucer or anybody else who's not paying attention)
You know what, I did a little research and you're right. There's something profoundly wrong with these inflated task values. They don't challenge anyone, they're dumb, why the community takes notice of them is unclear, but I suspect the motives are insipid nonetheless. The only reason they do get notice is probably because some piker thinks s/he can get an easy score. And what we need is to make sure that there's a delineation between extremely specific task instructions and point value, and a clear and abiding ruling on the correlation between task value and depth of description. Without these details, we risk being overrun by shameful people who might ascend to these levels without learning anything along the way. By the time they qualify for them, they might not otherwise make the connection between the level of the task and a challenge to collaborate with friends and bring intricate and challenging solutions to deceptively simple problems. Because if there's only one lesson we learned in Glasnost, and there is, it's that we crave the iron mailed fist of game creator involvement to tell us what's good and what's not.
uninspiring. Ease of directions also means good completions unlikely.
too short, no assurances of quality.
too much latitude, too many points for just two sentences. Like 240 too many.
250?? for something any British teenager can find instructions for on the internet? Hell, why not? Next it'll be 200 points for something like Dig A Sand Trench
Dig a trench in the sand.
2 to 5 players
200 points
Level 6
what? I mean, what?? They should just ban Kyle for pointless uninspiring shit like this.
yeah right. Name one guy in this whole game who could do this without fucking it up. Name him.
this is just ridiculous. With one absurd title and an equally absurd one-sentence description, they're practically begging for shitty praxis.
outrageous
pointless
never
so what
I have no idea what your point is, BU, but it is amusing just the same.
I know the problem I have with this task came during Interregnum, where, because of the short duration, I chose to play for points and place. This task pushed me into 3rd place (there was no way I could catch Lincoln), and I have yet to see a praxis that really makes me happy with the completion of the task. Still, at the time I was under the doctrine of not flagging, plus I felt doing so just because I was missing those score points was just sour grapes, so I didn't flag or complain.
This time I was one of those who flagged because, in a moment of weakness I was horrified to see the task yet again resurrected. I now wish I hadn't flagged, and am placing myself back in the no-flag box for a while. I have ideas about how to make this task worth 400 points plus votes, but I haven't seen anyone else provide that kind of praxis, and I don't think it is a task I'm going to do.
Third place? That's it? A good collaboration on this task put you in third place and that's the core of your problem with it? I admire your self-analysis because I think that takes some nerve to admit in public, along with your introspection about your trigger finger. I applaud you! You know eight quick votes for Tom would put you in fourth place, right? I could do it right now, and you'd never feel a thing... ;-p But realistically, there could be a future date when eight more players have joined the game and each voted on one of Tom's Interregnum tasks, changing the past and pushing you to fourth by attrition. It happens. Ever'body's gotta step on up! Or tend those gardens if y' wanna win win win!
Edit: @Lincoln well played! correct!
Still too obtuse to get your whole point, but I'll say this.
Interregnum's over. When it ended I was in 3rd place. No one can change that. What happens now with my Interregnum score, I don't care. I'm not going back. Vote for Tom all you want. In fact, I just did. I voted for 9 of his Interregnum tasks that I'd neglected before, All vote-worthy tasks.
See, this is why I'm against playing for points and place. I did it as an experiment during Interregnum just because it was so short, but thinking about points made me less likely to vote for some great tasks, like Tom's guitar hero sculpture, for instance.
And that's the problem I have with this task. The high 400 point marker and the simple question brings about thinking about the points, not thinking about the best, coolest, most interesting ways of completing the praxis. I think we'd get better, more difficult praxis if it was a 200 point task or less. Hell, I think folks would put more effort into the praxis than we've seen so far if it was a 15 point task.
So, no, my problem is not that the task put me a place marker down from where I wanted to be, but that the task encourages exactly that sort of point-centric thinking.
Like I said, Tricia, I only did that during Interregnum because it was less than 2 weeks long. And I didn't not vote just because I wanted to be best, but it did make me more careful with my vote, and it made me consider the effort of the other player in a way I wouldn't normally.
Neither, I think, is a good way to play, (in fact, if you read my comment above carefully, that's my whole point) but for 12 days it was a good experiment. The game is set up to play that way, if you want, and I wanted to see how it worked. I didn't play for place before Interregnum, and I don't play that way now. Because of the Interrex badge up for grabs, the mini-era sort of asked for that sort of play,
Just for the record:
I voted 77 times during the 12 days of Interregnum. Not a massive number, but I definitely wasn't holding back my vote just to place.
@JTony, Tricia: There is no "good way to play", there are only possibilities, and most of them are respectable.
250?? for something any British teenager can find instructions for on the internet? Hell, why not? Next it'll be 200 points for something like Dig A Sand Trench
Dig a trench in the sand.
2 to 5 players
200 points
Level 6
For this, BU, I am unimpressed. This, in my mind (as I also seem to be too "obtuse" to understand your reasoning) is completely unnecessary and irrelevant to your argument. The sarcastic "British teenager" stereotype also was pointless.
Be-foed.
Oh Ben, you dork.
All of you dorks.
Shall I now stop slapping you in the face with totally obvious compliments and instead begin actually insulting you? No I shall not.
Every task on that list, the list in my comment, the one with the links? Every one I linked to Is a picture motherfucking perfect portrait of a task that by Teucer's standards (deducible by his comments above) might be considered badly-pointed, that is to say a very short description and an absurd number of points, which resulted actually in really great proofs, including yours Ben. Christ.
Does anybody get it yet?
So the sarcasm is directed at Peter, who either didn't get it or, since he's been silent on the matter, can apparently deal with it. It's also directed at anyone who, by their comments on the "bad point value of this task" has demonstrated a (momentarily?) poor grasp of SF0 history.
TO WIT, I am arguing against the perception that "bad" or "dumb" or "too valuable" tasks with "bad" or "too short" descriptions are not going to result in good work. The examples I linked to clearly demonstrate that this is not the case. Including yours. The sarcasm is actually quite loving and defends you mightily. (Oh gawd, you cannot imagine what it feels like as a member of the most sarcastic generation in recent memory to begin explaining my sarcasm but here goes)
Teucer (and others) in a most casual and ill-considered tone:
"Not worth the points"
Unit: "But here's a completion that is worth it."
Teucer: "Nah. It's not really." (pats Unit on head) "Not your fault though, the the point value of this task is way too high."
Unit: "There is nothing wrong with the point value of this task. Here is a list of tasks that are just as short and highly pointed. When you say 'too high' like that, you kind of sound like someone who would say these comments I've written along with these links, supposing a person might say off-handedly of those tasks 'Install a Door? That's uninspiring. The simple directions make good completions unlikely.' or you might as well be some kind of jerk muttering the equivalent of '250 points for building a labyrinth? Why not give out 200 points for digging a trench.' I feel that when you damn a completion with this kind of comment, you set yourself up with guys who say other obtuse things about other tasks. But here are examples of too-high values that somehow resulted in inspirational proofs by great players who made SFZero great. If you say things like that, you should be prepared to be made a fool of by history. For our history is filled with greatness that condescension cannot defeat."
Instead I got mad, because I felt mad and I mocked and ridiculed anyone who would so casually damn the tasks in a way that is pretty much ignorant of my many friends' great proofs. The true value of a task is measured in the proving.
Foe all you like, but if you can't or WON'T recognize that as a kind of extended riff, and as a great compliment I. can't. help. you.
All right Burn Unit, 30 days in the hole.
... well said BU. Thanks for taking the time out to explain... You know I could never stay mad at you *pinches your face*.
*pinches your face*
You want 30 in the hole too Ben? You'll be missing that one bunk Hilton.
I didn't respond to your extended riff earlier precisely because I recognized it as such and couldn't come up with a witty reply, but since the wit seems to have been dropped I'll do so now.
BU: I agree that there have been plenty of good completions of tasks I think are, overall, worth too many points. That's not a lack of understanding of the game's history - it's a realization that the community has learned something about what's easy and what's hard, and has figured out about how many points different tasks should be worth.
How do I feel about the specific tasks you linked to? Door installation isn't too straightforward at all - it gives you a specific thing to do, but not one as tightly defined as certain other more constrained tasks. (Note: I'm not saying Drop and Run is a bad task, just one that fails to thrill me. And if it were worth 125 points like Door Installation, I would find that to be a bit silly.)
As for Trajectory of Desire, I'm not sure what you think my problem with that task would be. Granted, I thought the Multilateral Task Exchange completion could barely be said to do what the description asked for, and certainly wasn't worth any 400 points - and given the level requirement of the task I was surprised established people submitted that praxis. The rest of what came out of that task I'm excited about, and am still crossing my fingers that the new group on its way is LEWL.
The Fickle Sky doesn't actually give you all that much latitude - although it's only two sentences, those two constrain you a fair amount. And it's a *hard* task to do the way it's intended, which is why 250 points is a great score for it. But at the same time, submitting something that doesn't deserve 250 points for a level six task is frowned upon, and not just by me. Remember, I wasn't around to flag the original version of the praxis that the one current one replaced, so it's not my fault it needed to be resubmitted - but judging by the descriptions, if I'd been playing at the time I'd've been among the flaggers. Fickle Sky is a great - but challenging - task that I'd love to see brought back so other completions can be done.
And as for O Time Thy Pyramids - yeah, I do think the point value assigned to the task is too high. It's a good task anyway, and it's been completed well, but I'm still not entirely convinced said good completion should've gotten 250 points before votes. But the reason it was good enough to get that many votes (including mine, btw) is because (I believe) the GY0 crew went out of their way to make a cool enough praxis to not get so many complaints about the score.
I feel roughly the same way about this task here, by the way - good task, way too many points assigned to it. I have trouble imagining a completion of it that I'll buy as being worth nearly twice as much as O Time, though.
You also linked to Pure Evil, which is an interesting one. A little on the wide open end, but not so unrestricted as to be pointless. And all the higher-scoring praxes show people like Charlie and Dax putting the kind of effort into the task that a 125-point task demands.
Virtual Nation Building is one that I confess I used to be somewhat skeptical about - before the UK folks completed it by actually protesting for recognition. Well done, guys.
As for Fiery Apocalyptic Rain - it's a task that doesn't really thrill me for whatever reason, but frankly I thought your completion of it was quite well done. (In fact, I could have sworn I'd voted for it. I hadn't, but I've fixed that now.)
Reverse the Game really is just plain lame, especially for that many points. It can be interpreted either as making no sense, or as being equivalent to "win The Contest", which is also not worth that many points. The fact that nobody completed that one is telling, in my opinion.
I have no idea why you think I might dislike Sleep In A Tree. It's a cool task, and while you're right that it can be called "pointless", so can the entirety of SF0. If you see value in playing this game - and I do; I enjoy the hell out of it - then Sleep In A Tree is neat, and I intend to complete it if it ever comes out of retirement.
As for The High Score Task, your link just said "never". Do you mean you think it'll never be done? If so, you're probably right. But The High Score Task is in a category all its own - it's part of why the Sutro Tower is such an emblematic part of this game, it's been standing there since day one as a challenge to do something where the obvious methods risk death and serious jail time, and it's so monumentally difficult that it would be one of the highest scoring tasks in the game even if it weren't there for its epic legendary value. And both because of its epic legendary status in the game, and because you have to have inhaled the culture of SF0 at least a bit by the time you qualify for it, nobody will ever dare submitting a completion to it that isn't totally awesome.
So no - I haven't casually damned any tasks at all. You're interpreting my position on what it takes to make a quality task as being much more extreme than it really is. What I actually want out of tasks that get submitted is this: a task should put enough restrictions on players to force them to do something cool, leave room for at least three fairly different completions to happen, and have a score where if the praxis is at all cooler than the description makes mandatory it will clearly be worth the points assigned to the task.
So many tasks that meet this description get submitted (hell, I like to think my various pre-tired tasks do) that the admins have to be stricter so the site doesn't have more tasks than it can handle. I like to think the various pre-tired tasks I've submitted meet my standard - but, as I say, the admins have to be stricter, so I'm unsurprised that only two of mine have been accepted. At the same time, the admins are human, like the rest of us. Occasionally - but only very occasionally - a task gets approved that maybe shouldn't be. I'm sure if I were running the site it would happen with some regularity.
As for the implied compliment to the people who did really awesome completions of the tasks you linked from your post - a million times seconded.
First, @Ben,
There are some ways to play that are better than others. Some ways you can play strengthen the community and communal-tasking aspects of the game. Some ways strengthen players other than yourself, which strengthens the game overall. Some ways spread goodwill and increase the tasking awsomeness all around.
There are otehr ways to play that do none of these. Still others do the exact opposite. Although I agree that there is no one way to play, I challenge your notion that some ways are not better than others.
That said, I do think that the fact that the players are the moderators sometimes puts the players in the position of being overzealous in their policing of other players' playing. I think that the liberal use of the red X is an effect of this overzealousnous (I was a victim of that overzealousness in flagging this task). The expectations of new players right now feels a bit high, with some players meeting that expectation head on, other players struggling, and still other players possibly (though I hope it isn't so) running for the hills.
That said, (and this is @BU, Doc H, et al) I still do have a problem with THIS task, and here's why: The wording of the task is a simple question which brings a number of obvious answers to mind. For all players, but new players especially, giving a succinct, clear, and completely true answer seems obvious and straightforward, and the point number draws you in. Because of the simplicity of the question this task makes you start thinking about the points, and the temptation is too strong to resist.
I believe that playing for points is a less-good way to play the game, so for me, any task that makes you consider doing it JUST FOR THE POINTS is a bad task. I don't think any of the other tasks BU mentioned do this in the same way (at least they haven't made me feel this way about them as I do this task), so for me this task stands out as different somehow. Like I said, if it were a 200 point task, it would't have the same point-draw and I think it would end up getting better praxis for it.
I dislike the idea of earning 400 points for a task you can easily do in half an hour or so without leaving your desk.
I am among those who would love to see this task completed to it's full 400pt value, and I feel it should be unretired so as to let some more of us have a shot at getting it done awesomely.
Of course, there's always that -300pt vote.
Flagged because, while it completes cheat! just fine, it really isn't worth 400 points.